Product Marketing Life [podcast]: Sarah Din

In the very first episode of our Product Marketing Life series, we welcome Sarah Din, SurveyMonkey's Director of Product Marketing, to the show to talk about everything from what a day in her role looks like to what skills she thinks fellow PMMs need to focus on first if they want to move up the ladder.

Full transcript:

Bryony Pearce - PMA  0:00
Hi everyone, and welcome to the first ever show in our new Product Marketing Life podcast, which is brought to you by Product Marketing Alliance. My name’s Bryony Pearce and I’m the Content Manager here at PMA. This week’s pod’s sponsored by Product Marketing World. For those of you who haven’t had the pleasure of hitting up one of their events yet, Product Marketing World runs product marketing Summits all over the world. In each city, they unite 100s of product marketers and put together line-ups including speakers from the likes of Google, Uber, Twitter and Yahoo, to name just a few. To see if they’re coming to a city near you, head over to their site, productmarketingworld.com.  Back to today’s show...to give you a glimpse into the world of other product marketers, in this show, we’ll be talking to Sarah Din, Director of Product Marketing at SurveyMonkey, about what a day in her shoes looks like. Sarah joined SurveyMonkey back in May 2017 and before that senior marketing roles at Placecast, Mace Security International, and Reach Systems.  As many product marketers know, there isn’t really such thing as a standard day in this industry and because of that, we’re going to be focussing on Sarah’s most recent working day. Before we get stuck into a day in the life of though, welcome to the show Sarah, could I get you to kick of by talking us through your role, main responsibilities, and then your team in terms of numbers and positions.

Sarah Din  1:19
Sure, so I'll start with the company just because it's easier to start that way. SurveyMonkey's been around for about 20 years, most people have either heard of it or have used the product. It's historically been a very BC product and what it does is it essentially allows you to collect data through surveys, but over the 20 years we've really added a lot of products to our suite. So today, we actually have eight distinct products on our suite, all around the process of gathering data for different purposes, whether it's from an audience panel, whether it's from your employees or your customers. I have been with SurveyMonkey for about three years now. I joined the company as they were about to move to the enterprise space. As I mentioned, historically, they've been focused on consumer B2C and they really wanted to make a shift to selling to larger organisations and that's where I came in. And I, at the current moment, lead the product marketing team for both the B2C and B2B survey product suite.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  2:21
So were you quite involved in that shift to the enterprise side of things?

Sarah Din  2:25
I was, yes, that's kind of what I came here to do. That's been most of my background is working in enterprise and three years ago is when we started to make that shift, hire a sales team, and my role was really to figure out how to position the company differently, how to make sure that we are enabling our sales team to tell that story of all of our products that have been built over the last three, four years that really cater to the large organisations.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  2:54
And then in terms of your team, what does that sort of look like in terms of numbers and roles?

Sarah Din  3:00
So we've actually been going through quite a re-org because this year we acquired two other companies, and so there have been a lot of changes lately. So right now my team is about nine people and they're split into five people on the B2C side and four of them on the B2B side. That's how they're split. And then the rest of the product marketing team, which I don't lead, is from the new acquisition, so the products are currently separate.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  3:32
Okay. Gotcha. And then who is it you report to?

Sarah Din  3:37
Right now, the VP of Product Marketing, which is a tbh.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  3:42
Okay, and how's that faired to kind of other reporting structures in previous companies? Have you always typically reported into product?

Sarah Din  3:49
No, actually, my previous roles have been very different. I've led marketing across the board, so I've always reported to the CEO and this is my first very specific product marketing role. So either CEO or CMOs, I've never really worked in the product marketing org this specifically.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  4:09
Okay. And then so next up, one thing that's very prominent in Product Marketing is just the sheer variety of the role and I've been running quite a few podcast insider series and quite often I ask people the question: what does a day in the life of you look like? And every single time no-onw was able to give an answer just because every day is so different. That said, it's also an area lots of other product marketers are really keen to get a glimpse of how other product marketers kind of operate day today, so I was wondering if you could just please share with us a bit of what your day looked like yesterday? So what kind of meetings were you in? What what kind of tasks were you working on? And which teams were you interacting with? That kind of thing.

Sarah Din  4:48
Sure. Yeah. I mean, to your point, every day looks different. There is such a variety because product marketing really is such a cross-functional role. A lot of my day specifically is very meeting heavy. So it's a mix of being cross-functional and leading a large team. My role ends up being very much a support role or just making sure people are aligned. So I'll walk you through more, I'll walk you through a day yesterday, which started pretty early because we also have a team in Dublin, and so sometimes we have to have early morning meetings, so it started early with a meeting with the demand-gen team, content team and some of my product marketing team, which works on the sales assistant side to really work through our 2020 planning and prioritise the campaigns we're going to be focused on four Q1. So because this is the end of the year, a lot of our focus this week and next week has really been on planning for 2020 and really figuring out what are key strategies that we really want to focus on? What are the campaigns we want to focus on? So that's how the day started. And then I had my team meeting which I hold once a month, and that's really a mix of cascading information down to my team from different meetings that I'm in that they might not be privy to, and one of those things was earlier in the week had been working with a product team on the final roadmap for 2020, and so I walked my team through the product roadmap, answered questions, we kind of had some brainstorms around it of what we wanted to do and what we wanted to focus on. After that,again, meeting heavy day, there were another few meetings around cross-functional partners on the leadership team around their surveys product which included a mix of the product leader, engineering leader, finance, I'm trying to think who else, design lead, VP of growth, paid marketing, a couple of other people, and really that was to figure out what our OKRs are going to be for next year. So like I said, very, very focused on planning. OKRs if people aren't familiar with that are objectives and key results, and so every year at the end of the year, the company starts to put together their big OKRs, and then every team kind of goes through a process of figuring out how we ladder up to the company OKRs. And so there was just a brainstorm session around what we're going to focus on for next year. And then we had a bi-weekly meeting we have, which is around one of our biggest integrations that we're focused on is with from Microsoft, and so we meet with some key partners there, working through our plan for some things that we're about to launch next year. And then I had a meeting with finance on budget for next year. So that was kind of my day.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  7:54
Okay, cool. And then in terms of, so you mentioned the team in Dublin, how do you find that relationship in managing the time zones? And is it often you have to schedule these calls?

Sarah Din  8:06
You know, it's been interesting because we also have a team in Amsterdam now with one of the acquisitions, the company we acquired is in Amsterdam, so we've started to get used to having earlier morning meetings. I think it's easier for us honestly, we can get up earlier and have an hour meeting at 8.30 or 9am. That's not a problem. But they end up staying later so we kind of have to come to a compromise and, you know, we try to make it as early as possible and be as inclusive. The times when it's hard is when everyone's schedules are busy and we have to have big cross-functional meetings in the day, it ends up being later for them because it's not always possible to get everyone together at 8:30am here. We also have a team in Australia, in Portland and Ottawa, so we do have to be conscious of making sure we make people feel included from remote locations. For me personally and my team, typically it's Dublin and Amsterdam that we really work with and Ottawa to some degree. I think a lot of people are moving to that area as well.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  9:09
Yeah, okay, cool. And then also in terms of kind of the roadmap planning for 2020, would you say you/the product marketing team have a lot of say in sort of influencing that roadmap?

Sarah Din  9:23
Yeah, you know, that has shifted over the years. I think if you had asked me that question last year I would have said no. Because product marketing to SurveyMonkey is fairly a new function, it's been very much a product-led company and we weren't even a single product marketing team until two years ago, we were pretty scattered and we were always sort of at the end of the process, where we were focused on more of the marketing activities. And then last year, actually one of the questions you asked me earlier in terms of org structure, last year we were reporting into product and I think it was intentionally done for that reason, because there wasn't a lot of alignment between product and product marketing, and then we kind of worked through that over the course of the year and it helped, we fixed it, and then we needed more alignment in marketing so now we sit under marketing. But going back to your question, today, I think things are very different. It varies in certain products, I will say that, but for the most part, all of our key platform and products, we do have alignment. We work very closely with the product team, we also work together with customer ops and customer success and sales teams and sales engineers teams as well, especially on the sales side when we are continuously getting feedback from customers and a request from the sales team on what features we really need to have in order to close the right kinds of deals that we're focused on. So we do have monthly reviews of those features, we use JIRA a lot and Confluence, so we have boards there where we track the number of requests we get and then we use a different number of factors to really reveal these and prioritise different features. It happens over the course of the year so we do have a big voice, and then the planning process, Product Marketing is pretty involved in that.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  11:13
Okay, cool, thank you. And then moving onto the OKR side of things, so you mentioned you're in the stage of solidify those for next year. That's kind of another interesting topic in product marketers and I'd say and another thing I've gathered from other podcasts is that there's a real mix. Some product marketers do have OKRs, some people don't have any metrics they're measured against, are you able to share what it is you're measured against?

Sarah Din  11:38
You know, we've honestly never nailed this. We've tried different things. I'm hopeful this year is going to be different. It is true, it's very hard to find the right KPI so what I've done in the past is I work one on one with individuals on my team and I really have created this sort of framework where they have a strategic initiative, tactical plan, and then metrics that they measure against it, and each person is supposed to have three to five maximum goals for themselves over the course of the year. And we look at each of their goals and figure out what are the right KPIs to measure against, but trying to do it holistically at a team level is great if you can get there and there are some things you can get to like, you know, be more customer-centric, and how do you measure that? Things like that. Or how do you increase retention overall in the product? And then what do you use to measure that? There are some things you can do at a team level, but what really gets to the weeds of things is doing individual goals and then making sure they map to the larger company goals. Having too many goals and having too many layers in the past has never worked well. It becomes really hard to track. So when each individual and my team has goals, we track them every quarter because we do quarterly reviews, and that way we can really be thoughtful of how we're tracking against them, how do we need to address them? Because the one other thing that also came up this year with some people in my team was because this was a very interesting year for us because we went through a lot of changes as a company, acquiring two companies, being our first year of being a public company, we were learning a lot, and so a lot of our priorities shifted mid-year. And so the question came up is like, okay, we set these OKRs at the beginning of the year, how rigid do we feel that we have to stick to them? And my philosophy is always like, we need to shift and we need to be agile with the company and as a goal changes. So you have to make sure that we're setting realistic goals, but also that you're flexible and changing them if you need to. So that'd kind of been the process.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  13:37
Yeah, that makes sense. So I guess it's a continual work in progress, as the company's goals change your OKRs will change as well.

Sarah Din  13:44
Exactly.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  13:46
And then also, you mentioned your days and weeks are very meeting heavy. Would you say that's something that's just come part and parcel as you get more senior? Obviously you're director level now, is it just part of that senior-level role and your other team members aren't so meeting-heaving, or?

Sarah Din  14:01
Yeah, and it's really true, I think a huge part of it is being in a leader role. A lot of one-on-ones, obviously making sure that you're supporting your team. So throughout the week, that obviously takes up a lot of time as well, and then cross-functional leadership meetings and it is part of being in a leadership role. But when I wasn't in such a leadership role, I still think my days are sort of meeting heavy, not as much, I would say, but in during the times when we're actually about to launch something, or when there's a big initiative, it tends to be very meeting-heavy because at SurveyMonkey, especially I've seen that as compared to other companies, we are very, very cross-functional and we try to be very inclusive. And so there's always times where we're trying to educate all of our cross-functional partners or get alignment so it tends to become very meeting heavy.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  14:52
Yep, and then I guess for people who are quite new to the product marketing industry, for some people, maybe the lack of day-to-day structure could be a bit of a struggle getting used to. Do you have any advice for people who are maybe struggling with that?

Sarah Din  15:06
Yes, I would say create your own structure, don't wait for structure to happen. So what I've done is, you know, there is so much variability in the role, I typically don't know exactly what is going to be my focus for the week. But over time, I've kind of learned to see trends and patterns, and there are certain days I've blocked off for just all of my one-on-ones so that I'm really focused on that day. I also block chunks of my calendar to actually do thinking and working, because if you don't do that proactively, it's easy to get lost in what everyone else is asking you for, and so you need that time to really think and sit down and plan for yourself. Say no to a lot of things as well. It's hard sometimes, especially when you're new and you try to do a lot, especially if you're just taking on a new role. I've had a lot of people that have joined my team and one thing I tell them is, this is the best time that you're going to have here because you're, you know, the first 30 days just take to like, meet new people, make relationships and really learn. Don't try to do a lot, and really start to ramp up and then get into the zone of things. So if you create that structure in the beginning, it's a lot easier because then you set the cadence for yourself. So you just really have to be proactive, think about how you want to spend your time and create that structure for yourself.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  16:26
Yeah, I think it was Div Manickam from Dell Boomi I was speaking to and she was saying, I think it's every Wednesday, she has a no email day, so she'll just kind of block off her emails and use that day to just get through her work without all those little ad hoc requests that get you off your flow, and then they can just really kind of skew your time can't they?

Sarah Din  16:47
Yeah, and you know, on those days when I'm really working, I turn off my email and my Slack because notifications of any sort can be so disruptive. And sometimes I actually end up working from home in the morning, going to a cafe, putting my headphones on, turning everything off. Those are the most productive times I have.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  17:06
Yep, well, sometimes as well, I find, even still now, like if you get a Slack notification or an email, sometimes it's hard not to just look at it straight away and think I have to respond to that right now, but a lot of the times, I guess if you actually take a step back and think about it, they don't need a reply right now, a lot of things can wait, can't they? But it's just kind of getting that balance of what can and can't wait.

Sarah Din  17:25
Yes, it takes time to get to that point where you don't feel that urge.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  17:29
Yeah, for sure. Okay, well thank you so much for answering all those questions about your day. I'm just going to shift to a few more generalised product marketing questions and looking back throughout your career from the start to now. So first off, if you could go back to the start of your product marketing career knowing what you know now, what advice would you give yourself?

Sarah Din  17:51
My advice would be work a lot closer with product initially just to, you know, learn a lot about how the product team works, because depending on what your focuses are, and if you're B2C or B2B, there will be different kinds of cross-functional partners, but if you really learn the product world in the beginning I think it's really, really helpful because those are, regardless of what company you work in, what industry you work in, the product team will be one of your closest partners, and so understanding their world really helps you build your career in a way where you're always in alignment with them. That's one of the things that I didn't do in the beginning, especially because my career journey has been a little bit different, I came from very general marketing roles, so I lead everything from demand-gen to events, which was also helpful because again, it gives you empathy for different roles, and I think that's really, really important to have because again, we're a highly cross-functional role. So understanding different teams and what they do on a day-to-day basis and there are sometimes rotating roles that you can take on at some companies where you can do certain projects for a week or a month, like at least as SurveyMonkey they allow you to do that when you're first starting out. I think that's so important and so useful, if you have that opportunity, take it. Because again, understanding how different teams work will help you really be in better alignment, understand how to work with them and speak their language, and that really goes a long way.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  19:19
Okay, awesome. Thank you. And then can you think of one or do you have any sort of mantra or belief or behaviour or anything that's kind of most influenced your product marketing journey?

Sarah Din  19:31
Hmm, that is an interesting question. I think the one thing that really pops into my head is at the end of the day, a lot of times when you, you know, work in an org and you're sort of really focused on what the company is launching, what our products do, what our focus is, how do we grow, how do we become more successful, or how do we become public? You know, there's all these things that companies are working towards. Sometimes people forget to really listen to what the customers need, and making tough decisions as a result of that, and Product Marketing is probably one of the key roles where you are actually the voice of the customer. Some companies actually have that as a separate team which I think is great and I'm starting to see more and more of that. But really, our goal, at the end of the day, always needs to be understanding our customers better, understanding what they need, and then really building for that, because if we do that, every other thing that we're focused on will just fall into place. You retain more customers, you grow more customers, you have better loyalty, like everything just kind of falls into place. So at the end of the day, I always tell my team, okay, but is this what our customers will want?

Bryony Pearce - PMA  20:41
And then just focusing on that customer element again, how often do you/your team talk to customers? And what does that contact look like?

Sarah Din  20:51
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think for us, we do it more often than maybe some other companies because we are a research company. So we do a lot of surveys, we do a lot of quantitative and qualitative interviews as well focus groups. We also do a lot of events throughout the year. So we are always meeting new customers at events, we do a big conference every year called Curiosity Conference and there we have a lot of conversations with our customers. So we're continuously in contact in one way or another, whether we're trying to launch a new product and do some user testing, or whether we're just trying to survey our customers on a regular basis. We also have a customer experience team that does NPS, so we're also tracking our health in general of our customer happiness. So there's a lot of different ways that we're continuously in contact with our customers.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  21:48
Okay, cool. Thank you. And then next up, can you think of any bad examples or bad best practices that you hear in the industry that you wouldn't recommend others to follow?

Sarah Din  21:59
Hmm. That is an interesting question. Nothing comes to my mind right away.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  22:14
That's okay, we can skip past it. Okay, so if someone's looking to move up the product marketing ladder and could only focus on one or maybe two skills, what should they be and why?

Sarah Din  22:28
Yeah, I think one of the key things you need to nail right away is messaging and positioning, they're core to any product marketing role. If you're not good at messaging, you really can't do a product marketing role. So be really good at figuring out how to message to the right people at the right time. And positioning is important especially if you're working in organisations that have multiple products or have a very competitive industry, so you really need to nail how you position your products either complementary or against each other, however that is, or within a very competitive industry. The second one being Go-to-Market. How do you actually plan for a launch? What are the things that you need to do to align people? Align dates, timelines and what that launch looks like? If there are two things I really need to focus on as a product marketer, those two would be on the top of my list.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  23:19
Okay, magic. And then we kind of touched on it before how it's a very involved role, product marketing, you constantly liaise with other departments and people, and like, if you ever get overwhelmed or unfocused with all that chaos going on, how do you kind of regain composure? Is there anything you kind of tell yourself or?

Sarah Din  23:40
Yeah, I mean, totally. I think that happens in a lot of roles, especially the higher up you go and the more sort of strategic you are. Sometimes it can be overwhelming because it's a lot of thinking and it's a lot of planning and it's a lot of making sure, especially if you're a people manager, making sure your team is supported and that everyone's happy. It can be overwhelming at times, you just have to sometimes step back and take time to really think about the big picture and not get bogged down by the minute details and let other people help you. I think that's the biggest thing I've learned over time is, you know, when I was trying to prove myself and grow in my career, I felt like I had to do everything myself, and that I was the one responsible and I had to show up in a certain way. But I think it's okay to ask for help. And I think it's okay to sort of give other people an opportunity to take things off of your plate and in order to do that, you really have to identify what are the things that are important to you, so that the other things can fall off your plate and it's okay, and then you can be really focused. That's a skill that comes with experience, but I think it's been one of the most useful things for me. Any mentor that I've ever had, that has been always their advice is, you know, you try to do a lot, so try to give things up and it's okay to do that.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  25:03
And would you say to an extent, would that be more true the more senior you get? You feel like you more so have to know everything and do everything yourself?

Sarah Din  25:11
Yeah. And you know, I'm sure you've heard of the imposter syndrome, and I think a lot of people fall into that, right, the higher up you go you feel like oh my god, am I really in the right role? Do I know everything? And people are looking up to you, and they're asking you questions and you feel compelled to answer everything and be perfect at it. And it's okay to not have answers. That's also what I've learned. You know, when people ask me questions, if I don't know the answer, I'd rather say, you know, I actually don't know, let me get back to you, I'll find out, or let's figure it out together, rather than just lying or just saying, yeah, here's the answer and just saying things that don't make sense. I've had managers in the past that have done that and it kind of loses my trust, right? Like I feel like okay, I really don't know what you're talking about. I'd prefer that you tell me you don't know then we can figure it out together, so I think that's an important skill to have as well.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  26:04
Yeah, that makes sense. And then next up, what's the best lesson you'd say you've learnt during your time in the product marketing industry?

Sarah Din  26:16
I think it's what I've been talking about throughout this podcast, it's really understanding the customer at the end of the day really helps you. And then there are so many different ways of doing that but staying in constant contact with a customer will help you in every aspect of what you do as a product marketer. Whether it's creating messaging, whether it's launching a new product to them, whether it's creating thought leadership, every single thing that we do, whether it's developing the roadmap, if we don't know who we're selling to, it makes our job really hard and so figure out the way to really get close to the customers, get inside their heads and really use that information to do everything that you do.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  26:59
Yep, for sure. And then the next question, I feel like I'm going to be putting you on the spot again here with a tricky one, but if, hypothetically, your work hours were just chopped in half tomorrow, what would you spend your time on with the little time you have remaining?

Sarah Din  27:14
Hmm, really, really good question. I like your questions. I think, so definitely I would spend time with my team. Definitely would keep all my one-on-ones. And then, it's again, it's tough right now because of our work shifts, but I would spend time with my key cross-functional leadership team on getting alignment, because that at that level really needs to happen in order for everything to go smoothly. So I would do that and I would spend time with my team. That's kind of what I would focus on.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  27:45
Perfect, thank you. And then would you say there's any aspect, in particular, of product marketing that you're most curious about?

Sarah Din  27:56
I think one of the things that we've been trying to build more of is how different teams do competitive intel. In talking to some of my colleagues in the different companies around here, some teams have dedicated people on their team to be doing competitive intel, others just do separate that rolls with strategy teams or others don't even do it. So I'm curious about how people approach competitive intel and how they use that information. How do they educate it to the rest of the org? Because that's something that we're really trying to build into our team next year.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  28:36
Yeah, for sure. Okay, and last couple of questions.  So penultimate one, we kind of talked about it earlier in terms of having to say no to people and bat certain things away, are there any things that you still struggle to say no to?

Sarah Din  28:52
I think when my team comes to me for different requests, I hardly ever say no, sometimes I probably should because I'm overwhelmed and I could move that to a certain time, or just, you know, not everything is urgent. That's something I still struggle with because I really want to be there for them and especially at the moment, because we've gone through a lot of reorgs, half of my team is shifted and is new, and so I'm trying to be there for them more so than usual. So that's something I've recently struggled with just from a bandwidth perspective.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  29:31
That makes sense. And then final question, what do you think, if anything, the biggest problem product marketing faces either right now or in the future is?

Sarah Din  29:42
A consistent theme that keeps showing up at any conference that I've been or any product marketers that I talk to is that lack of alignment between product and product marketing. There is often a perception issue in what product marketing's role really is in different companies. Yes, it varies. But at the end of the day, we still are a very strategic role. We're not only doing tactical work to launch products, and oftentimes, Product Marketing isn't seen in that light at a lot of orgs. And so no matter who I've talked to, that seems to be an issue, is that no matter how much alignment you have, at the end of the day, there's always this perception issue of product marketing is just launching at the end of the process, they're not really there to have a say in how we build products and what we build for. PMs often have a huge sort of like ownership of their products as they should because that's kind of their baby, but it should be a partnership more so than this it's my product, you're launching it.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  30:45
And do you have any thoughts on how we overcome that? Would you say it's more of an industry-wide thing to tackle or is it, for example, a certain product marketer in a certain company, they need to position this? Or like, how do we get that alignment?

Sarah Din  31:00
I think there's a couple of things you can do. I think one of them is relationship-building. At the end of the day, for product marketing, being cross-functional, it's so important to build relationships and get to know people and getting them to trust you enough to involve you, right? You have to show up with some sort of value, nobody's going to give you a seat at the table if you're not providing value. So provide value, find where the gaps are, whether it's doing a research study and coming up with insights and then taking them to the product team and being like, here's what I learned, even that can help you get a seat at the table, right, just showing some sort of value. Two is on the product marketing leadership to make sure that across the org, they're really positioning the team in the right way, showing up to the right meeting and advocating for the team to be present at certain meetings. For example, one of the programmes that we're really focused on, as I mentioned earlier, is the competitive intelligence, that's a great way of doing the work and then showing up and educating the rest of the org on what other competitors are doing, and that puts you in more of a strategic light rather than just launching products at the end of the day and being seen as you're part of marketing and that's all you do. And then the third one, I think part of it is an industry issue, I don't know what the solution is, I think it's more education, more awareness overall, and just defining the product marketing role a little bit. It is a fairly new role in the grand scheme of things, and so I think that's still being defined by different teams and by different people. What I've started to see is there's more and more communities coming together, which I think is very helpful, because you learn from each other and then you have a bigger voice. And over time, I think it will shift, but I think we're kind of in that transition phase.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  32:50
Okay, perfect. That's some really good insights, thank you. That's all my questions. Thank you so much for your time Sarah, it's been really great speaking to you.

Sarah Din  32:58
Thank you. I really had fun talking to you as well.

Bryony Pearce - PMA  33:03
For everyone still tuned in, thanks so much for listening and if you enjoyed the Podcast please help us spread the word to other product marketers.  Before we leave you to get on with your day, if you want to get involved, here are a few ways you can. If you’re a product marketer and you want to come on the show and speak about your day, a specific topic or your role in general, that’s one option. If you want to flex your podcast hosting skills, being a guest host is another. And finally, if you or your company want to sponsor an episode, there’s a third.  Thanks again and have a great morning, afternoon or evening, wherever you are!