We spoke to Bree Bunzel, APAC Product Marketing Lead at Dropbox, all about customer listening and what CABs look like over at Dropbox. From who's involved and how often they run them, to what agenda they follow and how they share their findings, expect tons of tips from start to finish.
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Bryony Pearce - PMA 00:01
Hi everyone, and welcome back to the product marketing life podcast, which is brought to you by Product Marketing Alliance. My name's Bryony Pearce, and I'm the Content Manager here at PMA. This week's podcast is sponsored by Product Marketing World. For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of hitting up one of their events yet, Product Marketing World runs product marketing summits all over the world. In each city, they unite hundreds of product marketers, and put together lineups including speakers from companies like Google, Uber, Twitter, and Yahoo to name just a few. To see if they're coming to a city near you, head over to their site, ProductMarketingWorld.com. As part of this series, we're connecting with product marketers all over the world to speak about topics they're super passionate about. And in this episode, we'll be speaking to Bree Bunzel, the APAC Product Marketing Lead at Dropbox about customer listening. Bree first joined Dropbox in August 2017, and in that time, she's built the company's first global customer advisory and advocacy programmes. We'll explore both of these more throughout the podcast, but for now, welcome to the show Bree!
Bree Bunzel 01:05
Thank you for having me.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 01:06
Oh it's our pleasure, I guess could we just kick off with a bit of an introduction to Dropbox and then your role within the company?
Bree Bunzel 01:13
So Dropbox is currently a leading collaboration platform. And our mission is to design a more enlightened way of working. Back when our founder Drew had been sitting on a bus and he forgot his thumb drive over a three-hour drive and realised there's got to be a better way to save and manage and work on files remotely. And so from there developed Dropbox, and since then, we've evolved to not only file storage and collaboration, but moving more into this space where we're able to interact with different teams, different colleagues, all over the world, wherever you are.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 01:49
I like that story for how the business came about. I didn't know that.
Bree Bunzel 01:53
Bryony Pearce - PMA 01:55
So the main topic of this podcast is obviously customer listening. Can you tell us a bit about the types of customer listening you do at Dropbox? Would you say it's more online, offline, a blend of both?
Bree Bunzel 02:04
So before I jump into the actual listening methods, I think one of the things that we were off trying to figure out was that several years ago, McKinsey did a study that found that if you add up tasks that you do throughout a day, like finding information, sifting through email coordinating people, what we call work about work, it actually takes up 60% of your time, which only leaves 40% of the time that you're actually spent doing the work you're supposed to do - the meaningful, impactful work. And we realised this was a big opportunity at Dropbox to create a better way of working, and we've been building up programmes to better listen and solve some of these big challenges. So online we've got social listening, in-product. We've got customer support, phone chat. Offline, we've also come up with a lot of different programmes to better interact and listen to those customers. So we have something called real world Wednesdays which is every Wednesday we bring in customers to headquarters to have them run by different ideas and topics and get their thoughts and feedback, do user research, we also do customer visits. And lastly, what we're building out more recently is a customer community and building out advocates for the company.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 03:14
Nice. I like that real world Wednesday, how long's that been going on for?
Bree Bunzel 03:18
Yeah, it's several years. And it's just a great opportunity - there's such a vibe, when you bring customers in the office, they get so excited. And they start to feel like extensions of your company, like a lot of our employees have so much joy coming to work every day. And when you get to bring customers into that environment, it's absolutely contagious, and it makes you realise why you do what you do. I think when you're sitting behind a screen all day long, you start to forget that there's an end-user with a specific problem or challenge that you're solving for. And it makes it so much more meaningful and impactful when you can build personas and actually solve for someone, like Beth's needs versus just user number one. That's not the way that we operate. And in fact, actually recently, Dropbox created a whole new set of company values. So we had had an existing number of values that were set out. And only recently is the first time we've changed them. And one of the values is making work human, which is really all about making sure there's a human element and interaction and insight into everything that we're doing.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 04:16
Yeah. And I guess it works both ways, as well. So you're saying from your perspective, it puts a face to a name, but then from the customers perspective, you don't see a company you just see this online screen. You don't put a person behind it. But then from their perspective, they can put names to faces as well, which I guess is nice. And I know I mentioned at the start that you created this customer advocacy programme, but I guess in a way that will feed and help in with that?
Bree Bunzel 04:44
Absolutely, exactly right.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 04:46
And then so all these initiatives, you mentioned a few just then, who else is involved with that, as well as product marketing? Or does it just sit within your function?
Bree Bunzel 04:54
It actually doesn't sit within Product Marketing. It's a cross-functional effort. So it's one where anyone, for real world Wednesdays at least, that's one where people across product typically driven by product are building out user research of sorts in the actual office itself. And that can be anyone from someone in product marketing to someone in engineering, building out the product to someone in user research, who's trying to understand more details. And typically what we'll do is we'll send out you know, 'Here are the key customers that are coming this week. Here's the actual audience', because you have to understand what specific group you're solving for because Dropbox solves for a lot of different sizes and needs. And then from there, we actually build out, 'What does the actual day look like? Who are we talking with?'. Usually, it's scrappy prototypes, which I love most. It's not something that's pretty and polished. It's like, 'Here's a piece of paper with this drawing of what we've evolved our screens to look like, our experience, or the way that you collaborate with someone to look like, what are your thoughts?', and we love that concept of low fidelity prototypes, and I'll get into that a little bit later. But it makes it a lot easier to quickly vet whether something's resonating or not with the customer, and then be able to optimise from there.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 06:07
Okay, cool. And then you mentioned off-air that you've been building these customer advisory boards over the last year. Can you just kind of talk us through that process and how you went about it, and then what it actually looks like for you now in practice?
Bree Bunzel 06:19
So we actually started out, like I mentioned earlier, as a company focused on file sync and share solution. And now that we've evolved to this collaboration platform, we've also been able to broaden our impact not only to customers but to businesses and bigger organisations. And we realised there was an opportunity to learn more about this group. There's a lot of complexities with how you collaborate with massive teams. And there's obviously nuances by vertical, by company size, by the way the org structure's set up and we just didn't have enough answers to what we actually needed to realise, we needed to build. So a few years ago, we started our first customer advisory board programme, and they're done in a lot of different companies and in a lot of different ways. But for us, specifically at Dropbox, we see it as a listening post for some of our key regions to bring our top customers in to provide their insight on feature ways of working, feedback on their experience using our tools, our products, our support, and also reactions to things like our forward-facing roadmap. So they signed an NDA, they're able to come in and see things that we haven't even launched, like I said before, these low fidelity prototypes, it can be something as simple as a mock-up screen and say, "Hey, this is the direction we're thinking of heading. What do you think?". And that actually informs a lot of the direction for product. And it's something that's so valuable as well, because we've got a lot of executives that attend and product owners that attend that actually can go back and make change, they can take those insights and bring it back to the team and say, "Here's a key challenge I heard and we need to go solve, how do we go about doing that?". And one of the things I love most about the programme as well is that from this, you're starting to create these stronger connections with customers, building out customer references and stories, and start having these customers share your stories not only on a regional but a global level. And at the end of the day this programme is built so that customers feel heard that we are making sure they feel invested, that we're invested in solving their current and future challenges. And it's also an opportunity for them to get together and know each other. Like I think a lot of these people in the room are CTOs, CIOs, they're super busy, they don't have time to connect. And it's actually nice to create this forum where they can meet with other peers in the industry and say, "Hey, I'm also struggling with all these different tools that we use in the organisation, how are you solving it?". And what you find is there's actually just so much benefit to even someone who's five years down the track versus someone who's just starting out, and how they can share learnings with one another. So we find that really valuable with the programme.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 08:49
Yeah. And then in terms of when you were actually setting up the customer advisory board, how did you find getting customers on board? Were people generally quite receptive or did you have to incentivise them?
Bree Bunzel 09:01
I'm actually always surprised to find out most customers are really open to talking to you. And you just kind of start with, "Hey, we're looking to get your feedback, we know you're using the product a tonne, or we know that it's a big part of your organisation and the way that you collaborate." And we actually don't need to incentivize them. People love sharing their stories and how they're using your product, or they always have their two cents on things you need to improve, but we're all ears. And we've actually found that it's also good for their own professional development and growth. So especially in these bigger organisations, the people we talked to are reliant on being knowledge experts in not only tools like Dropbox, but also future trends and future ways of working. And so the more knowledge they gain in these forums, and the more interactions they have with people like us, the more that they can then influence the products internally in their organisations. And what we've also found is that a lot of these people eventually want to go into board type roles in their future career. So it's a nice stepping stone for them to get involved. So it's actually more of an incentive for them than we realised, and that's actually something we spent a lot of time in the early days building up this programme trying to figure out - defining the 'why'. Why do these people actually come to this? Why do they invest their time? What's in it for them? What's in it for Dropbox? And setting those table stakes at the beginning really makes a different experience in conversation, and what we actually used and leveraged as we built the programme is design thinking principles, which is basically a framework to take customer insights and build them into action. And what we found as we're getting all this feedback, but we're not sure what to do with it. And so building out a programme like this requires some sort of framework to say, "Here's everything we've heard in each of our different locations around the world. Here's some of the trends that we've seen most commonly, here are maybe the most exciting elements of what people love out of a programme like this, and maybe the least energising, and how do you actually start to build and evolve a programme based on those emotional needs?" And I think that was the biggest learning I've had from this programme. Not only learning design thinking and building a framework for such, but being able to actually see how these customer insights can be taken to build a product. And that process seems very, almost looser, hard to even get your head down to figure out, what is the next step once you hear all this? And so it's been really exciting to be on that journey, to start taking that and influencing the way that we build our product for now and in the future.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 11:30
Yeah, for sure. And then how often would you say you get your customer advisory board together?
Bree Bunzel 11:36
So currently, how it is today is we've got one customer advisory board in each region around the world in person. So we've got locations in Sydney, Tokyo, San Francisco, New York and London. And those represent those regions. So even if a customer is going to London, they may be based in Dublin, or Tel Aviv or somewhere else. And those in-person interactions are the most important ones because that's where a lot of the connection, the networking, the conversation, the in-person connections happen. And then what we also are working on building this year is to turn it more into a programme in which people are meeting more frequently, outside of just that once a year mark. So whether it be with the regional Dropbox employees that are actually building out the local relevance, or maybe it's on a virtual webinar of sorts, where they're interacting with our product team in HQ to say, "Hey, we've got this cool new feature, what do you think?", it's really just starting to build this programme where there's this VIP feel and community and from one another, they can also start to learn more about their experiences and their challenges and they can connect even offline without Dropbox involved, that's kind of where we see it, ideally heading.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 12:48
And then how many people do you have within each region, within a customer advisory board?
Bree Bunzel 12:54
Yeah. So the way we like to do it is actually pretty intimate. There's a lot of ways to pick your audience for customer advisory boards, it can be cut by highest engaged users, biggest companies, biggest companies giving the most revenue, a lot of different verticals maybe that you're focused on for the year, you can cut it a number of different ways. I think, for us in particular, I think we did want to go after our bigger customers, like I mentioned, because we were moving towards a business-related product and we wanted to understand how larger organisations were using it. In terms of the actual audience in the room, though, it's really important to keep it small. What we found is that when customers in a group are over 20 people, it starts to feel more like a conference and they're not vulnerable, they're not authentic, they can't share their challenges, or maybe it starts to feel like Dropbox needs to have more of a polished presentation. And while we want to show up strong I think the other piece of it is being open and saying, "This is just a mock-up. We could invest in this or we could invest in this. What do you actually think is a better use of our resources and our time?". So what we found now is around 10 to 12 is the sweet spot for customer advisory boards where we've got definitely more customers in the room than DropBoxers. So we have a chance to listen and for them to more interact with each other than us just speaking at them. And that was one of the biggest learnings we had this past year. I think one of the big interesting things of companies is, you'll hear a lot of companies say, "We listen, we love listening to customers", and then they spend the whole time talking. It happens all the time. And I even thought early days as we were doing it, and so we've architected a programme in which there's a lot more time spent on listening than actually speaking.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 14:39
Yeah. So you don't mind sharing, how does it actually work? So on the day of these meetups, what is the flow like? Is it a full day event? Or is it a couple of hours? And then how will you try to structure those meetups?
Bree Bunzel 14:54
So as part of the design thinking research process to learn more about customer listening, I actually did an exercise where I interviewed lots of customer advisory board organisers like myself at other companies. And I also interviewed people who attend customer advisory boards for big businesses at other companies. And there's a lot of best practices that I learned and some that are consistent and some that are varying. So, for example, the day itself, there's some companies that do a three-day conference where they fly them out to some remote location, and have them all have almost a trip and experience out of it and other companies have just an afternoon of the experience. We're more in the earlier days of building out our customer advisory board. And so we have found that a half-day works really nicely. It doesn't feel like it's a full day of commitment where these CIOs or CTOs are taken out of their office. And it's enough time to get the impact of insights that we'd love to have, the connection we want to develop with them. And also just the chance for them to provide meaningful engagement without getting too tired or exhausted. And I think over time, we'll probably start testing whether we can make that longer, maybe extend it beyond a day. But we found that this is the sweet spot, you can get a lot done in that time while still having enough ample time for networking and connection. So half day works best for us.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 16:15
And then how do you go about, I know you mentioned you have these advisory boards all over the world, how do you go about the knowledge sharing afterwards? Will you confer with people in London and see how there's went, how does that work?
Bree Bunzel 16:27
So we try to keep a few of the core team consistent in every single cab so customer advisory board, as we call it, but I've thought myself and a few other teammates who attend each of them. And we actually take copious notes during our customer advisory board events. We learned not to record or video them. What we found is the customers actually feel uncomfortable being recorded and they're less open to sharing. And so we take copious notes. We actually spend a lot of time debriefing, so we have a formal debrief set up the next day with everyone in the room who attended to make sure that we all leave with the exact same story, takeaways, and action items for various teams. What we found is we didn't do a great debrief the first time we did it and everyone left with a different takeaway. So you want to make sure that there's a consistent story and learnings happening. And then post-event what we actually do is we create a key executive summary of everything that was learned. And that gets shared with all the key executives that attended, and they're responsible for sharing it out to their teams. And then we also do a share-out where I go on the road and share the different teams, "Here's the things that we learned, here are the things that we should now be focused on". And we do compare and contrast. There's definitely themes that you'll hear consistent with a lot of customer advisory boards in different regions, and they're ones that are completely nuanced. So for example, in Japan, there's a lot of unique cases that have nothing to do with the feedback that happens in other regions. But those are specific regional needs that we take into consideration. We are also working on an internal Wiki of sorts, where it's a one-stop-shop for all insights, so that any team at any part of Dropbox can go in and learn what we heard on the road. And that gets shared more broadly with the organisation.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 18:10
And then how much do you share with the customers that attended afterwards? So do they get exclusive insights into, 'your feedback will result in this later down the year', or how much do you give away?
Bree Bunzel 18:21
Yeah, that's actually one of the biggest criteria of success for us is making sure that they feel heard and understood, and that we're actually following up on their feedback. Because the last thing you want to do is go into a room and say, 'we're here to listen to you and take on your feedback', and then never follow up on it, right? You don't want to helicopter in and out. And so we've been working really hard on building that feedback loop. So one of the things that we've done is partnered even closer with our engineering team, and I think getting a key sponsor, executive sponsor, on the product team is really important to a programme like this because they're able to then champion all the insights that come out of these customer advisory boards and actually prioritise that. So one of the big things that we do is we do share a summary out that's customer-facing, that's shared with customers to say, "Hey, here's all the great things that we heard from you. Thank you so much for that feedback. We're going to take it on board. And we'll follow up with you over the coming months of how that's prioritised". And then we have these check-ins with our CSMs or customer success managers, that manage these specific customer relationships. And they have an ongoing connection with them to share updates. And then what we're very conscious of is - we're actually finishing out our first loop, so we have coming up in New York in a week, our second customer advisory board - and what we're doing is we're starting off the session by saying, "Here's everything we heard from you last year. Here's all the key themes heard. Here's what things have actually been developed and progressed. And here are things that we're still working on." Almost like a red, yellow, green progress chart. And that actually makes them feel heard. And what we found is even if it's not a priority for the year, the fact that you acknowledge that it was heard, but it wasn't prioritised among these other things, it's still enough for these people to feel like their time was well valued, and they're investing in the right time.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 20:09
And then another thing that I've built a picture of over these podcasts is a lot of product marketers seem to struggle with internal knowledge sharing. So they know, for example, the sales teams and the customer success teams, they're sitting on all these insights from their interactions, but they just can't seem to extract it and the teams aren't forthcoming. How would you say Dropbox is with internal knowledge sharing and how do you find those relationships with the teams that have that kind of insight?
Bree Bunzel 20:35
I think it's always a work in progress like you said. I think every company does not have internal knowledge sharing mastered. And what you find, especially as I've seen with Dropbox, going from the start-up feel more to a bigger organisation, is the existing ways that you may share knowledge don't work as you get bigger. So one of the big things at Dropbox, we have a big 'reply all' culture where everyone just chimes in on a big launch, and then everyone's replying, all saying 'great work' and it's super exciting and exhilarating. But at the same time, it starts to devalue or take away from the actual content itself when there's a tonne of launch emails or insight emails happening. And so one of the things we're doing is starting to consolidate a lot of the communication across the different teams. So there's a specific way that you share information out to regional team, to HQ team. We have lots of company all hands, and regional all hands, so that's actually a big central source of truth for a lot of the knowledge sharing. And then we're also consolidating a lot of the big updates of what we're hearing around insights to bi-monthly. And so instead of getting an email every day on a different research project that's been done in a different corner of the company, it’s consolidated. And what we're hoping to find from that is from there, the research is also shared. And almost you can see key themes coming up versus just these one-off conversations happening. So we're still working on it. And I think like I said before, one of the things like having an internal Wikipedia database that people can always reference for insights ongoing, as they go about their projects is a one-stop-shop way of handling and solving for that. I think sometimes you get an update of specific research that was done and it's not relevant for you today. But maybe in a month, you're working on a project that actually relates to it. So I think we're going to be working to figure out how to funnel more people to that insights page ongoing.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 22:22
Yeah, for sure. And then next up, can you think of any mistakes around customer listening, that you commonly hear or see product marketers making, that you'd advise people to avoid?
Bree Bunzel 22:34
I mentioned this a bit before - people don't know how to listen well enough. There's a lot of interviews that I see where people go in and say, "Okay, we want to hear from you. We want all your feedback". And while they're interviewing them, they're actually talking the entire time and not listening. And I think it's almost one of these like human psychology elements of just awkwardness where people don't like awkward silences, but actually, if you sit in the silence and you don't fill the space, that's sometimes when the best insights come about. And that space is actually when customers can formulate their thoughts in an organised fashion and can share that out. And so one of the biggest things, I think, is how do we learn to be better listeners? And one of the things I learned from understanding design thinking methodology a bit more is this empathise phase, that first key step of that framework is the most important. And within the empathise phase, I think what's really important, is there's a framework called 'energy mapping' and 'journey mapping'. And so what you're doing is, when you're actually interviewing someone, you are able to map out between a chart of high and low axes, the high energy points where they're getting most excited, they're talking fast, their eyes light up, they're smiling, and the moments where they're disappointed or they're sad, or they've lost energy. And what you can do between the two of those points is start to map out and hone in on those high points and say, "Why do you feel that way?". And we have this thing called 'the five whys', if you keep asking 'why' you can actually get to the deeper insight. Maybe initially they say, "Oh, it's easy, but this one little thing", but if you keep digging, you'll actually find out that little thing's actually some big challenge that they deal with every day that we can help solve for. And so I would suggest as well, people learn and research a bit more on how to better listen and interview and also map the interview out as you're going through it so that when you finish an interview, and you debrief, you can quickly get to the key things that you need to solve for faster.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 24:28
Okay, cool. And then final few questions. So do you have any examples you can share with us of some customer listening success stories? So a change you've made on the back of something that your customers have said to you, and then the results that yielded?
Bree Bunzel 24:44
So the beauty of a customer advisory board and customer visits, is that you are able to have executives and product leaders in the room there. And I've mentioned this before, but it's so important that the right people are in the room. It doesn't help that someone who doesn't own that product is not in there, they need to be the ones to take it back to the team and act on it and actually make changes in the product priorities or the roadmap. So for example, in the last year in APAC in Japan, we had a lot of customers that work with government organisations. And about a third of our customers weren't able to use Dropbox because they weren't locally data stored. So people weren't able to have their data stored in either Japan or Sydney or Australia. And this was heard in a lot of customer visits as well as our customer advisory board. And the leadership team immediately, as well as the product team, took it back to HQ. And within six months, we were able to have a locally hosted data centre in both regions, which was super impactful. In Japan as well, there is a communication platform called Line or Line Chat. And it's basically a WhatsApp in Japan. But what we found is a lot of people in the organisations that we were interviewing, were using that as a source of communication with their colleagues. And we were able to take that insight back. And it's now an integration partner with Dropbox so you can communicate with Line and collaborate with your teams in Dropbox. And that's something that's super beneficial to a lot of teams making workflows much more seamless. And the last thing I'll say, also product marketers usually own messaging and positioning. And in our London cab last year, back in October, we learned we had a better opportunity to solve some of the unique challenges that IT decision-makers are facing. So the way that we were speaking about our product, helped end-users and resonated with end-users, but not people who are actually making those big decisions on tools in the organisation. And so we transformed some of the messaging and the narrative to address the unique challenges for those IT decision-makers. And in turn, we've had a lot more meaningful conversations with prospects, with customers, because we're solving for their challenges, not just consumer challenges. So it's a lot of different learnings we've had, there's a lot of different examples, but those are a few in particular that stood out for us.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 27:05
And then in terms of - you mentioned customer visits there - who does that sit with? Who will actually go out and do those customer visits?
Bree Bunzel 27:13
We actually have a lot of teams that own customer visits. And I think we're trying to streamline it again, this was one thing that as we were a smaller organisation, people went out when they wanted to go do research on a specific topic, but what we realised is that it started to get a bit duplicative or overlapping between different teams. So we have a user research team, we have consumer insights, that sits in marketing, we've got product teams that have their own design research teams, and we also have local teams when we have customers in town, bring executives out and visit. So it's not to say that it's completely organised, I think there's a lot of different needs based on a lot of different teams, but what we are doing is trying to streamline that a bit better this year. So let's say we've got a big challenge that we need to face in this specific region. Having all those people aligned in one place will make that a lot easier to organise and also easier to share and report out for the challenges that we need to solve for.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 28:10
Okay. And then final question. So you mentioned these customer advisory boards are fairly new to Dropbox. How does it work in terms of people from above? Do you have OKRs against it? How do you measure the success of implementing these customer advisory boards?
Bree Bunzel 28:26
So one of the big things that we've been working on, like I said earlier, is really understanding the 'why'. So why do people want to attend? And I think for a lot of customers, we want them to feel special, that they're part of a community that they have influence on our direction, that they're exposed to the right leadership, where they feel important that their information and the feedback they have is being heard. And I think a lot of what we're also doing on our end is figuring out, how do we create a feedback loop so that it impacts our roadmap, our positioning, our marketing, our messaging, and so there's a lot of different ways that we measure. One of the things that we're doing consistently is a post customer advisory board survey. And so that's done at the end of the experience itself to understand, did they feel heard? Did they feel like their feedback was valued? Are they connecting with the right people? Are we creating an opportunity for them to do that? And then I think one of the things that we're building internally is, how do we then start to measure the number of ideas that are accepted and implemented? And how engaged are people, do they want to come back to a customer advisory board in six months time, in a year's time? And that's something that we're building out today is getting better at that measuring piece. And I think now that having a customer advisory board where we have strong product leadership, as an executive sponsor, and having them being able to champion those insights and actually build it into the product, I think it's a much different experience than a year ago, when it was more run by product marketing itself. I think you need to have your cross-functional stakeholders involved to truly make it impactful. So we're excited to see the results this year. And I think we've got a better, more well-oiled machine to make that feedback loop turned into action.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 30:06
Yeah, for sure. Okay well, thank you so much. That's all my questions for today, it's been really great talking to you, lots of insights and really useful tips there for everyone. So thank you for that.
Bree Bunzel 30:16
Great, thank you so much for having me.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 30:17
Oh, no, you're welcome. And good luck with your second advisory board in New York in a couple of weeks.
Bree Bunzel 30:22
Thank you so much.
Bryony Pearce - PMA 30:25
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