If you read a few job descriptions for a product marketing you'll quickly realize that everyone has their own definition of the role.

In this presentation from Jim Walker, VP of Product Marketing, Cockroach Labs he walks through a conceptual definition of the role and how it can help you align expectations, hire what you need, and demonstrate value to your organization.


Transcript of presentation:

Jim Walker  0:06
I'm delighted to be in a room full of product marketers. I hope everybody's a product market. But we'll get into that in a second. Because I feel like this, this shouldn't be like pmms should be like product marketer anonymous. Like, I'm Jim. It's been 12 days since I've changed the buyer personas. We should all introduce ourselves. No, seriously, there is a group of us out here that that I think we're just underrepresented in the world. And this presentation for me, is the way that I communicate what product marketing does to executives to my team, when I go through the hiring process with people, because I just feel like it's one of these misunderstood documents within an organisation and so I came up with a framework that's what we do in product marketing, right. So I think it's time that we start marketing ourselves, right? Because I just feel as as such we are misunderstood. That said, This was my calendar. Today, this is my calendar today, what you'll notice is there's no like travel time to Brooklyn. There's no presentation. So I have to thank Nathan, who organised this for inviting me to come here. But I didn't get invited to speak until yesterday at about noon. And my calendar yesterday basically looked like this as well, right? You you all seen this calendar before. So I kind of started on these slides around 6pm last night, so forgive the third, they're kind of plain. They're not my typical, like more exciting slides. I don't even have a template. So your product marketers, there's no marketing in this other than this is a concept that I've come up with over the past couple years to help explain these things. All the content that I have, I'd like to expose to everybody and I would encourage everybody here to expose it to each other. This slide deck will be available on if you DM me or you, you you, you email me or you connect with me on LinkedIn. blog posts that's that's about this. So this isn't like I came up with a concept and said, great, I'm going to present tomorrow. This is something that I've actually blogged about and thought about for a long time. So those are my caveats. If I say the wrong things on the wrong slides, I've never given this presentation. So I will, I will start with that. Um, so my I am VP of product marketing company called cockroach labs. People love and hate the name, they never forget it. We are a database company that's that's, that's located here, headquartered here in New York City. We are a database that can survive every evolution. And as people evolve to the cloud, they need to land their data in the cloud along with their applications. Well, we have a database that will evolve from legacy systems into the new and you just can't kill it. So I love the name personally, because I think it actually is a great brand for us. But I'm also a venture partner at a small VC firm that's based in San Francisco called OSS capital. We focused on open source software and taking open source projects and building companies around those I'm a developer turned marketer. Long time ago, I had a computer engineering undergrad, I coded for a very long time. But I was always the person that was on those teams that had to get up and explain things to people. So I very naturally kind of gravitated towards I was a product manager, but when I was a horrible Product Manager, I was really good at getting up and talking. So they put me in front of people, I ended up becoming a product marketer. Because, you know, for me and my heart telling storeys is what we do as product marketers, I think you just saw the last two conversations. You know, if it's through emails, talking to people about their issues in a very private way or it's through pricing, that is a value conversation. And I think everything we do is about telling a storey and and knowing that in here in our hearts, I believe allows us to tell really great storeys and so as a developer of course I'm doing product marketing in tech and around a database but I know it well right by my a startup aholic. So, again, the other side of this is, I work in startups, that's all I do. This is my eighth startup in a row. Either I'm a glutton for punishment, or it's the only place I can actually be. I've only worked in a public company once. It was because the company I was at actually was fortunate enough to go through that process of going through an IPO I lasted two months. I'm not a large company person. So again, finding your home finding where you belong as a product marketer, I feel is incredibly important, because if you could tell the storey from here, it's going to make a whole lot more sense. And then finally, I'm a Product Market. I'm proud of it. I hope I've kind of expressed that so far. Alright, so I didn't want to so again, when you get tasked with giving a presentation the next day you think like Okay, great, how could I fill some time? filling time audience research, so let's do a poll. Actually, it's persona development because your product marketers. So how many people here work at a startup 123 It's about 30% 25%. Okay, great, cool. How many people work in a public company?

And it's not it's not balanced out. Like, I guess there's an in between place or people are shy and we'll get back to that. How many of you are in b2b marketing? Okay. Wow, that's cool. So this should be b2b product marketers anonymous, obviously, and then how Okay, so, for this one, let's have everybody stand up. Because you've all been sitting you're going to go on a coffee break every stand up. So this is the interactive part of my presentation. Again, this is just filling. So how many people here identify as a product and if you identify as a product marketer stay standing if you don't, please sit back down. All right, this is good. This is good. Okay, how many people here and by vote, feel that product marketing is one of the most strategic components in an organisation if you don't sit down? Is is no No, no, no, no. Shouldn't be the holy other question. We all know the answer everybody who's standing under that? And I say it's one of right because I think where we sit is the confluence of so many different things in an organisation. Right? And so, if you disagree with this statement, please sit down. Okay, this is great. So, Dave, this was our very first conversation this morning. So every single person I know that does Product Marketing feels they are misunderstood period, it is absolutely that way. So give each other now I'm not gonna say this support group. Okay, you can sit down again, thank you so much. Um, but it's true. We are a misunderstood concept. Absolutely. And I have struggled with this my entire career and explaining these things to people I always my favourite one actually. explain these things to people always becomes a complex topic for me. So what I'm going to go through right now is a framework that I use to explain to people what we do. This isn't like so Axel Are you still in the room? actually had an awesome side with like, all that stuff we do, right like that slide without your head like at things on it. I love that thing. Oh my god, I love it because it shows like basically the the depth. People can understand it though if you aren't a product marketer, right? Our days are full, we have a lot of stuff. So this is more of a high level kind of understanding what is so I feel when I took step back and said, Okay, why are we misunderstood? Number one, I think product management, Product Marketing, there's a lot of overlap. And we'll come back to that in a minute. There's the emergence of content marketing, which you know, I'm a Product marketer, so I was kind of just thinking like, okay, that's me with my writing hat on. And so where does content marketing fit and where does Product Marketing fit in your organisation? Each organisation is different, right? Every every face looks different and every face of an organisation is going to look different. So that's really, really key here. And that comes back to this kind of the whole size and stage of a company is is radically as well and i and i use it as a key point because what I'm going to talk about right now is my understanding of product market and how I communicate this up. Again, let's go back to who I was. I didn't do that because I wanted to like show off YM guys, I am a startup person and I am in tech that is going to dictate how I think about marketing and how I think about product marketing, how it fits in the overall organisation. I can't even imagine given a pricing Are you kidding me? No way. But that's the stage of the company I'm in right depending on where you are and what you are in your org that's what that's what really dictates who owns what I'm historical expectations. If you talk to somebody from Microsoft, they have like these crazy different titles product manager I think is actually Product Marketing, right? I think so like there's this this terminology thing to it's like, I you know, like we hurt ourselves by calling our things ourselves the wrong name. Sometimes. every industry is different. I kind of spoke to that and then I feel the most efficient important part about defining product marketing in any organisation, either as your team or as an individual comes back to the people and the experience that are in your team and around it. Because sometimes there's people who are just that great. And they're on an adjacent team, and you know what they should own certain things. I just gave you my kind of, you know, I feel really passionate about pricing. I've given up pricing a couple different times in my career, because man, it was just somebody that really understood it. And they trusted me to be an input into that process. Right. And so it just depends ultimately, on who you are as an organisation that said, Oh, no, oh, no, don't do that. Okay, great.

Please work.

Okay. That's a redheaded stepchild. I'm sorry, I just close like yet.

Okay, so what's helped me is this broader definition, right. And so if I could think about what we do as marketers, there's going to be one slide that kind of pulls it all together. That's my treatable slide. So product Marketing is the process of building and delivering a core narrative. There's not a wasted word there. They all mean something. process to me is this this is never done. What we do is never done. We may create something one week like I said, I'm Jim I changed my buyer persona in 12 days. These things change, we iterate over time we learn we gain insight from all the different parts of the organisation. It is ultimately definitely a process the the What did you call today the one offs the the Assamese that I need this or whatever, like these people are like get this thing to the the neatest. Yeah, they just think we're just like this like service org, you know? Yeah. But there's a lot going on. And I want to I want to talk to that. But it is really about delivering this core narrative. So I want to start there. What we do is as as marketers, to me at the heart is is really two things. We build a storey and we tell a storey. We're storytellers we build a narrative. We go out there and we tell this to the market or we tell this to our internal state. holders. Right and that's pretty much to me kind of a summary of what we do. But ultimately I feel it is the most strategic part of an organisation right if we have clearly articulated storey will take over markets, right? The company storey to me is the company's strategy. So, this is Ben Horowitz, he's a partner at Andreessen Horowitz. This is a quote of his that was in Forbes magazine or whatever Forbes online a couple years ago, you can look up Ben Ben. Ben's really phenomenal. There's another CEO. His name is Dave mechanic. He's the CEO of a company called Hoshi Corp that's out in San Francisco and I worked for I the pleasure and the honour of working with this man. But he just fully believe that marketing drives the entire strategy of the organisation. And I can't even like agree any more than 100% I wish I could go 220% especially in today's markets, especially, at least in tech, right like in tech, our buyers touch our software before we even talk To them, what is that process that's there on our website. Buyers expect the the the personal touch and the experience of basically the consumer experience in in enterprise b2b. That means they are touching you, they know all about you before you even get to them. And to me, the product marketer is the critical linchpin in that new conversation like today more than ever, we are more important than anything. And so the fact that there's only like, I don't know, 100 of us in the room, I expect this whole kind of field and this this whole document of product marketing to grow over time. There's lots of people talking about startup were like, the the most important part of the organisation is product market. I think it's it's kind of a known fact, because we can actually reach down understand what you want to say and translate it because that's ultimately what we are. We're translators, right? If it's English to Italian Well, it's, it's tech to English is what we do. Right and, and that narrative, to me is like the most important part of any company, and that's, that's I love doing this with small companies. So So when we build out a message, I always think about a message is kind of, you know, head heart and wallet. Why do people buy, it's really kind of one of three different things. And I feel if we hit organisations or we hit our buyers in the buying process across the Y tribe, right process, with the right message at the right time, will be really effective about actually selling these people. Right. And so, you know, I always start with with the head, because, you know, that is why people actually get interested in you in the first place, I feel. And that's your audience message that's like, why do they even need this thing? Right, which is really critical. The second is, and usually people start with the product, they start with the with the wallet, I think, which I find a big mistake. Like, I talked to a lot of developers and these developers think like, this little widget they created is really cool. And they're like, Oh my god, everybody's gonna be it's gonna be awesome, like, but they have no idea why they need that thing. Right. And so starting with product in the startup world is basically the biggest mistake they could possibly make, but they can't think about the audience message. Why is somebody thinking about this? And then the last part to me is there's the top one, it's the heart. Right? Why? Why are we sitting in this room is because we actually all feel like this is a community, right? Dave, why did I like you, when I first met you really just like, you know, there was like a natural kind of personality. Right? And the personality of the company, which you work is critical in that sales process.

Unknown Speaker  14:31
And this isn't like your internal, like, aim high or commit to excellence, like the internal like, you know, hey, that's on your careers page. Right? This thing about I was like, why are we in this business? Why do we do this? Right? And so we basically I build this out and every company I've ever have, like the layer cake for every single company I've been at, I save them actually, I have one deck that just goes through these whole things. But we basically developed this stuff and then incorporate into into an overall theme and so on. This is my current cake at cockroach. It's kind of sounds weird. nothing of it, but it was like 1115. Last night when I did this one. Um, you know, at the comedy, let's just start it from an audience point of view, what we have is we have a database that evolves with your business, right? organisations today are going through the process of moving their applications to the cloud. They're moving these applications to cloud, they're wanting their land in this new space, they think it's great. But ultimately, they have to actually move their database as well. And databases from legacy world don't actually migrate to the cloud very well. So what we've done is we've architected a database from the ground up, that basically accommodates all these applications in the cloud. Why do people do this? Oh, audience message. They want to modernise, they want to actually move from the old to the new, they have a cloud strategy. net new Oh, they're cloud people. They just actually want to build new applications in the cloud. The third one is future data architecture. I'm I'm working on the sentiment of the person being like, Oh my god, I need to be in the future. People love the future that Love the modern modern I two companies ago, I was at a company called heart and Funny enough, the third one was actually just modern date architecture. I just couldn't use it again. I just felt it was kind of cheap. Right. But I got to the heart of what they're doing. And then I say, Oh, great. Yeah, it's distributed sequel. It fits this New World Trade Centre. It has all the abilities, a security and reliability that you need. And it's cloud native, right? It's going to work in this new environment you live in. Those are two different levels. And then finally, why do they buy from us? Well, our CEO and the founders are just this incredible group of people that came out of Google. They're they're just experts at this stuff. They're awesome. Right? And we're evolved in our approach, right? And every way that you think about our company, we have a, you know, it's cool. We have on Fridays, we have something called flex Friday. You can work on things outside of work, like it's kind of like a four day work week, but I think Fridays is you just catch up. That's evolved, right? And so there's lots of ways the net and that's thinking it's not just our database, kind of a lot of lines with that, but that's SS and organise it. Why do people want to work there? Why do you want to buy from these people? Right. And then finally, we were we are definitely kind of looking looking forward, as opposed to around and back. But I just give that as an example of the one slide about what my company does as an example of kind of how that narrative plays out. And once you have these kind of nine pieces in place, I like three, so three layers, three across three up. You know, I'll publish this to the sales people and talk about alignment, right, simple, straightforward layer cake that they can actually go to it anytime. And if they can memorise three things on each level and understand where they're at, they can actually do this this matrix, right? So it's really critical, just gain alignment across the org actually helps up the org to to actually help people understand what we do. So, Product Marketing is not just building that storey it's also telling the storey so I like to think of shared frameworks as a critical component of the way that we do our business. I typically will talk about on top of this narrative, these four Use Cases kind of translating to the audience message honestly the stuff that I just kind of talked about it's kind of I just pull it up because I think it's important to talk through customer information how many people think customer information is just building a case study by raise a hand? Nobody it isn't. It's ultimately how we actually distribute that thing. Right But I believe Product Marketing should be in charge of all this product information we should treat it as a database and Salesforce or wherever you want to do that that's what I like to do it and we use it down funnel right so into our sales team to teach them how to sell but we use it up funnel as well. Right to build out use case studies and everything we put on you know, the extra web right but central collection of information is really critical shared framework and it's shared function. competitive, absolutely. Like we have battle cards that go down funnel we have, you know, Harvey ball comparison sheets that go up funnel right to show buyers of why. And then personas which I can I could talk for like a day on personas. Talking data and like, all these things are really important, right? So there's these shared frameworks. And then we use these shared frameworks in lots of different ways, right? We tell a storey through external channels through a bunch of different things.

Jim Walker  19:12
I love the actual slide again, it had lots of things that we do. But I like to actually tease these things out into the two sides. When I'm speaking about what we do. Again, this is a general and I use one around my definition of definition, because it's just my definition, we all have our own. But there's lots of things we do right we we typically on the website, we do these competitive case studies, we do programmes we are we are we are partner to demand generation programmes. Right? But our sales plays should actually match our programmes. Right? And if we tackle that audience message again, this is where we gain this alignment. We get the audience message, right. We can actually use that same thing. Oh, modernization, oh, well, in demand Gen at cockroach labs, I have an entire modernization campaign going on because it's how I Buyers by. And by the time people get to an MQL, and we're actually having a first meeting with them. We actually understand now because this campaign is what they responded to that bottom of funnel and first meeting, I'm telling the sales people hit monetization. Right? Because we've we've run the same programmes up the funnel as we're doing down the funnel in our in our one to one conversations as well. So it's like that that framework, that critical alignment between the two sides, I feel just really, really important. Then, internally, we talked about these things at length as well. You know, the pitch deck, look at it, that is the main point in which you actually align people in terms of what you do you own it. Right, like there's no product management thing in here. This isn't about a product, right? Like I said, this is a bigger layer cake message, right? Where are people coming from? What are their problems, introduce your product, why is it a value from and then talk about competition or whatever that last step is right that says it's pretty simple path through a storey That we can all go through it right? But you own it. And we use these things a lot of different ways. I also believe like we we are key piece of the reporting analytics. Typically, reporting is owned by demand Gen or marketing Ops, I feel that product marketing is a key piece of that as well. Again, just understanding up funnel and down funnel is really important for me. And then I just I can't say anymore. Like I think pricing is a valuable conversation. I believe it, it belongs to product marketing. And so I use basically, OI, I talked a bit so this is where I built the slides last night I got ahead of myself. The shared frameworks are really great because it actually creates this up and down funnel alignment. I think it's this really important to think through. So this is my one slide if you want to take picture. No, it's fine. But if you want to tweet something out, this is kind of the one thing I use to describe what product marketing is to people. You know, it's the the simple understanding what it is and then look at you tell a storey through external channels and internal channels. So that's me, I'm at James. If you want this Are they aren't whatever just just DM me, I'm happy to share anything with anybody. So how does this work when you have a various different organisation, right, so Okay, content marketing comes in and there are different group Great, okay, well, you still own a whole bunch of stuff, right? And you're still driving the way customer info is used because you have these frameworks, you're still involved Aronoff running case studies, without information, full information, you're still involved in that sort of thing. So some of these things starts to start to greyed out right, when you have, you know, addition of a strong demand Gen resource, I'm happy to give up certain things because there's alignment and there's trust between the two sides of the organisation. Once you have it's great right and then finally there's like a there's a solid product management product management and other holy other beast and so it's, it's, it's kind of, you know, when I talk up to executives are kind of within the team like this kind of way of talking about it, but you know, ultimately the the pragmatic framework, which I was first introduced to Gosh, man, 20 years nowadays, you know, like, something like that, like, I get Yeah, I'm kind of myself, I'm grey in the beard.

I had a pager that's I was I'm that old.

This this the framework works, man, like this thing works. And it helps people. And so when I try to align product management with Product Marketing, I basically start this thing I just turned it all grey and say, okay, but what are we doing? Like who's doing what here? right and so this framework also is a really useful framework to actually help the internal conversation between the two cycles. I don't use this typically with executives or kind of the the people around us that my higher level framework is kind of abstracts this stuff out. But product managers get this stuff, right and so again, it's just this is a you know, you can actually edit this slide and use the I redid it as a table so it's kind of easy to do. I also customise this this doesn't even look like there's a there's a lot of new boxes on here from from the from the pragmatic framework though, but thank you to pragmatic for this because had changed a whole lot in a lot of years. And it actually It kind of works. And I think some of the stuff Dave's going to talk about kind of balances out on this. So, again, why are we misunderstood? You know, to me ultimately, every organisation is different. It's a different fingerprint across everywhere. And then why does any of this matter that I'm talking to about other than, basically, I'm catering to a crowd of product marketers. Right? Like if you guys don't like I come out, right? It's like my crowd, my people. So all to ultimately I find alignment and and more importantly, coverage is just super critical. Especially in like, like I said, I'm kind of a more startup person. So like, just helping founders understand that look at there's these concepts that you're going to have to do as an organisation. And I use the framework to show that to people. They're like, yes, we need that. And so if you're going to hire somebody for product marketing, or marketing or demand Gen, or whatever that is, you've got to cover these functions in your organisation. Otherwise something falls doesn't get done. when something doesn't get done in a smaller Virgin company it fails. Right? So I think number one, it says coverage. Setting the right expectations is critical. Again, how does how do people measure? You know, I love the question like, Hey, what's your success metric for product marketing? revenue is you know, revenue. But this is all the stuff we do, right? So another critical piece and how you measure your teams. And then finally, I just I always navel gaze at the own team, and I see what we have. And this kind of gives me a higher level sense of where we're good and where we're bad on teams. You know, when you got a team of 45, product marketers, each of them doing different things. There's always something that you're kind of looking at, you're like, man, how do we actually improve that piece of the Oregon when when you're lucky enough to get the headcount and you can go out and buy it. You can hire, understanding kind of the bigger picture, you know, rocks that you can move around. I always feel really, really important. I always come back to the framework to help you understand that So I found this graphic this morning drove me about like, this is my life. Like I can't handle things that are misaligned. But anyway, I'll step back. So. So with that, I'll stop talking. I don't know how long I went, Dave. But again, I wasn't able to time this thing out. Thank you, everybody, but I'm happy to take any questions. It's really high level stuff, though. All right.

Unknown Speaker  26:20
Thanks for the presentation.

Unknown Speaker  26:23
Question. We're talking about price Hi.

Jim Walker  27:08
So the question is if you're b2b or b2c, just having people who understand that that curriculum is that important? Absolutely. Like, I think the like to me, what makes me good, like, okay, I like what I do. What makes me like what I do is I actually get the tech and I you know what i was a developer and I am an advocate for the developer. I'm like, you guys, what you're doing is really cool. You just need to sell it. So if it's an app, that's a healthcare app, like Libya, you're into healthcare, it's cool, like you're into that thing. Like finding your mojo and finding your thing is where you're going to fit very well. And so as a manager, I always look for people that have experience kind of in my field are very, very closely a Jason I just find a critical one tangent on that though, is I find it a mistake to actually elevate certain people that Haven't been through the kind of the process as a junior person to come over from, you know, like, like a developer turned product marketer that said, I'm happy I made that transition. It's not always easy, but I think there's traits and people that you can look for that will ultimately make them good product marketers. That's another blog post I wrote. I think a lot about this too. It's I just I just believe product marketers need to be passionate. Absolutely. They you're you're selling you're the spokesperson, your job and that storey? You got to be like, its intelligence. I'm sorry, but you guys are all some of the smartest people in organisations that don't say that to pander. You are you get it, you understand what's going on in that product? And that's part of like understanding here what you know what it is, right? Because you gotta you gotta get it. But I think number one is humility. You know, if you can't say you're wrong, or you can't listen, it just you're just not a good product. Right? And sometimes, like people who come from more technical sides, they're right all the time and they can't listen, we're we're a little bit we're loose, right? So

Unknown Speaker  29:03
Absolutely yeah so sorry

Unknown Speaker  29:13
I'm a product on

Unknown Speaker  29:21
a call How often do you think the point of view of the product market fit and how does it fit on the on the page and I believe as enthusiastic fashion storytellers he can

Unknown Speaker  29:36
dive deeper into emotions.

Jim Walker  29:42
Yeah, that is a really wonderful question. So where does product management drop off from Product Marketing begin for a core narrative and honestly, their input in my opinion and the organization's I work their input because I think ultimately this the layer cake, like they don't understand like the stuff about the company, the heart like that, so That's an emotional reason somebody buys right like the the audience message. Very rarely do you get a product manager really gets like that, like, they get the user storey like how they're using the product, they don't get the buyer journey. The buyer journey is somewhat emotional. And product marketers are emotional people we get it like that's where the passion comes out. And so I think that's where I always have conversations between product management and myself around kind of where we were we kind of let up and take over. Its partnership, though. It's like, there's like a one. Yeah, I guess the reason I like startups is because it ends up being a partnership across the board isn't like I'm not fighting internally for resources for anybody ever. We're just we're just they're working together. And they know what I can give. And so if you come to the table in any organisation with a framework will love you. So Nate Stewart, who runs Product Management at cockroach labs. He's like, Jim, you started two weeks, like, has work. I used a pragmatic marketing framework. I was like, Okay, what do you like where do how do we do this? Right? You come with framework because you actually understand like, this is how people do things. It helps tremendously. There is no like black and white answer on that and I love Northwestern so

oh my god, what is a good demand Gen team look like? I just think GSD like they are the ultimate like they keep me like, on point. Like, my demand Gen team right now management manages me through Asana. It's great. Like it's like a project management. It's awesome. Like, I am so happy because otherwise I'm just like a snare. It is great man. Like No, no man that's got to be used in a webinar and an abstract and I was like, I am I'm a service to them I think but it's a partnership. Right? Because I'm also helping them think through like, Okay, great, this campaign is monetization. What does that look like? they own it. And typically they have some good experience in the field so they know what the buyer looks like. Which I think is always really good but like the number one trait for me for demand generation is they are just it's it's GST, it's it's get stuff done to me. But I there's no answer. It depends on the work. I think so.

Yeah, so the question is, you know, where should Product Marketing report to? Is it CPO? Is it cmo bait I'm paraphrasing and doesn't matter. You know, I think it matters because Ultimately, I think it's going to end up forcing kind of what you are aligned with. And it comes back to the redheaded stepchild side like it just depends on your organisation what's right and the people that are around you. I know that's a super like, lame answer, but it ends up being kind of like it's organisational. A lot of times its historical. My personal preference again, the reason I like startups is I can actually get in and say, This is what you want for long term you know, longevity of your organisation. It is absolutely a marketing role in my opinion. Like it's not even a question like, because we are basically the translator between the buyer journey and the product like and how salespeople sell it. We own enablement you with sales enablement, Oregon the sales thing like Okay, great, like set meetings, right? We own that storey we, you know, we drive basically the strategy of the organisation. Again, that's kind of a smaller company thing though. So my done Dave is at the time All right, great. All right. Thank you guys so much. Really appreciate it.